[CPN] Fwd: Decision on proposal with respect to species

Sun May 13 15:05:43 EDT 2012

I like this suggestion.
Phil

On May 12, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Kevin Padian wrote:

> Rather than sift through previous emails, some of which may have been
> intended only for internal discussion, would it be better if individual
> members elected to send Brent, Nico and David a summary of their previous
> comments?
> 
> After all the issue of accepting their proposal is closed and there is no
> use in further debate and cluttering up everyone's mailbox ...
> particularly if the committee wants to consider certain amendments now. 
> That would make a clean distinction, it seems to me.
> 
> I agree with Phil about including the authors of the proposal in
> discussion before a final decision is reached.  Could I suggest another
> way to do that?  We might discuss this among ourselves for a while and
> identify general consensus (if it exists) on the proposal.  These points
> could be summarized for the authors, who would then be asked to respond
> (one hopes in no more than a few pages max).  Then the committee could
> discuss those points and make a final decision.  Just a suggestion; it
> might be a bit cleaner.  -- kp
> 
> 
>> This seems like a fair request.  If the CPN agrees, I can easily add
>> Brent, Nico and David to the listserv for the purpose of this discussion
>> and then unsubscribe them after we are done discussing their proposal.  If
>> we agree to this, though, I think Dave (as CPN chair) will need to be
>> assertive about cutting off discussion of particular points if it becomes
>> clear that the pros and cons of that point are being stated repeatedly by
>> the same people on each side.  Otherwise, progress will slow to a snail's
>> pace and everyone's time will be wasted.
>> 
>> I'm not sure how best to give the proposal authors access to the points
>> that led to our initial decision.  This relates to the following in Dave's
>> message yesterday:
>> "Also, I wonder if we should post several of the responses and or snippets
>> of the discussion for the authors and rest of the society to see?  For
>> example, I feel that Dick Olmstead's review that he shared with the
>> committee, David Hillis' comments, and Kevin's response do a very good job
>> of articulating the position of the CPN, and it seems like the authors and
>> the society should be aware of these."  The messages that Dave suggests
>> are good choices, but I also suggest that we include my explanation of why
>> I object strongly to permitting the conversion of specific epithets to
>> clade names (i.e., the elimination of Art. 10.9); this is in a relatively
>> short message that I sent to the CPN on January 11.  Other members of the
>> CPN may also want to include points made in their messages too.   Perhaps
>> each of us should choose particular points we would like to share with the
>> authors of the proposal, and in addition let's send them David Hillis'
>> comments.
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Brent Mishler
>> <bmishler at calmail.berkeley.edu<mailto:bmishler at calmail.berkeley.edu>>
>> Subject: Re: [CPN] Decision on proposal with respect to species
>> Date: May 12, 2012 12:19:50 AM EDT
>> To: David Tank <dtank at uidaho.edu<mailto:dtank at uidaho.edu>>
>> Cc: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature
>> <cpn at listserv.ohio.edu<mailto:cpn at listserv.ohio.edu>>, David Baum
>> <dbaum at facstaff.wisc.edu<mailto:dbaum at facstaff.wisc.edu>>, Nico Cellinese
>> <ncellinese at flmnh.ufl.edu<mailto:ncellinese at flmnh.ufl.edu>>
>> 
>> Hi Dave,
>> 
>> Thanks for the news; it is better to hear it directly.  I know there is
>> not a lot of precedent for CPN procedure; I think we were the first
>> "outside" proposal you had to deal with.  So I'd like to suggest a
>> procedural improvement: at some point it would be fair for us to have a
>> chance to reply to points made by CPN members.  So far it has been like a
>> debate where only one side is allowed to actually debate.  The people with
>> vested interest in the current treatment of species in the Phylocode,
>> Kevin and Phil, are in the debate and none of the three of us are.
>> 
>> Just a thought,
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Brent
>> 
>> 
>> On May 11, 2012, at 7:17 PM, David Tank wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Nico, Brent, and David,
>> 
>> Thank you for your thoughtful proposal for changes to the PhyloCode with
>> respect to species.  The CPN has voted to reject the proposal as an entire
>> entity but also decided to continue discussion to determine if there are
>> elements of your proposal that we would like to incorporate in the next
>> revision of the draft code.  I apologize on behalf of the CPN for not
>> having informed you promptly about the initial vote, an oversight that was
>> related to the fact that we are still discussing elements of the proposal
>> and thus view the decision-making process as still in progress.  At the
>> conclusion of this discussion, we will inform you of the outcome as well
>> as posting the CPN decision on the news section of the ISPN website.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> Dave
>> _________________________________
>> David C. Tank
>> Assistant Professor & Director, Stillinger Herbarium
>> University of Idaho
>> 208.885.7033
>> dtank at uidaho.edu<mailto:dtank at uidaho.edu>
>> http://www.phylodiversity.net/dtank/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> **********************************************************
>> Brent D. Mishler
>>     Professor, Department of Integrative Biology
>>     Director, University and Jepson Herbaria
>>     University of California, Berkeley
>>  Mailing address:
>>     UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY
>>     UNIVERSITY AND JEPSON HERBARIA
>>     1001 VALLEY LIFE SCIENCES BLDG # 2465
>>     BERKELEY, CA  94720-2465  USA
>>  Office: 4164 VLSB
>>  Phone:  (510) 642-6810 [office and lab]
>>  FAX:    (510) 643-5390
>>  E-mail:
>> bmishler at calmail.berkeley.edu<mailto:bmishler at calmail.berkeley.edu>
>>  WWW:    http://ucjeps.berkeley.edu/people/mishler.html
>> **********************************************************
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Kevin Padian
> Department of Integrative Biology &
> Museum of Paleontology
> University of California, Berkeley CA 94720-3140
> 510-642-7434
> http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/people/padian/home.php
> 
> 