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Hi Phil,<br>
<br>
Same here: OK by me.<br>
<br>
George Sangster<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Op 21-12-2018 om 22:58 schreef Richard
G. Olmstead:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E21D3A77-3BA4-4D14-B594-D42C4F89F14C@uw.edu">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Phil,
<div class="">Reads okay to me.</div>
<div class="">Dick </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 21, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Cantino, Philip
<<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cantino@ohio.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word;
line-break:after-white-space">
<div class="">Dear CPN members,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The attached second draft of the
proposed changes in Art. 11.9 incorporates the ideas
expressed by Michel and others in our discussion
this past week. He, Nico and Kevin have already
seen this draft and are comfortable with it. In the
absence of any other concerns having been raised by
CPN members, Kevin and I will consider this change
to be accepted by the CPN. However, if you think a
formal vote is needed, please let me know. </div>
<div class="">I wish the best to everyone for the
holidays!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Phil</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word;
line-break:after-white-space">
<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 18, 2018, at 8:54 PM, Max
Langer <<a
href="mailto:mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<div class=""> Hi all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> I agree with Michel that
sometimes it may be pointless to include a
image that is already broadly known, which
will mostly be the case of published images.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> So, my take on this is that we
may allow referring to a existing image,
instead of providing an image, but only when
this image is a published one.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> The rest of the modifications
is fine for me.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> max</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Em ter, 18 de dez de
2018 às 15:11, Adl, Sina <<a
href="mailto:sina.adl@usask.ca" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">sina.adl@usask.ca</a>>
escreveu:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);
padding-left:1ex">
Thank you Phil,<br class="">
I think this type of question, and others we
have not thought of, and others we have not
discussed, will continue to arise from
members and users.<br class="">
It is probably a good time to start thinking
about how to handle queries and revisions
after publication. A task for the executive
to forward proposals about committees to
handle issues after publication, for the
next decades. We have a few very different
models in existing Codes. I don't think,
having worked closely with some of them,
that any of them are effective for the 21st
century -- they were not effective at
handling change at the end of the 20th.
Sina<br class="">
<br class="">
Sina Adl Professor<br class="">
Department of Soil Sciences<br class="">
College of Agriculture and Bioresources<br
class="">
University of Saskatchewan<br class="">
(306) 966-6866<br class="">
<a href="http://agbio.usask.ca/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">agbio.usask.ca</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
Editor-in-Chief, Rhizosphere<br class="">
<a
href="http://www.journals.elsevier.com/rhizosphere/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.journals.elsevier.com/rhizosphere/</a>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: CPN <<a
href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>
On Behalf Of Cantino, Philip<br class="">
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 10:31<br
class="">
To: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature
<<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br
class="">
Cc: Max Langer <<a
href="mailto:mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br</a>><br
class="">
Subject: Re: [CPN] Proposed changes in
PhyloCode Article 11.9<br class="">
<br class="">
Dear Colleagues,<br class="">
<br class="">
I think the discussion may be getting overly
broad. Images are not required in
connection with the vast majority of
phylogenetic definitions. The article we
are considering concerns a narrow
situation—the use of specimens that are not
types as specifiers. For the most part,
this situation will only arise when one is
defining the names of clades within a
species or a small complex of species (see
Art. 11.7). Currently, Art. 11.9 requires
an author to submit to RegNum a description
of a non-type specimen used as a specifier.
We are proposing to permit an image to be
submitted instead of a description if the
author prefers. However, a description will
still be an acceptable alternative. In view
of Kevin’s comments about the availability
of non-copyrighted images and the ease with
which permission would likely be granted to
reuse images from museum collections,
inability to submit an image is likely to be
a rare event. When it does occur, a
description could be submitted instead. I
therefore don’t think we need to permit
reference to an existing image to substitute
for submitting the image itself.
<br class="">
<br class="">
It would be good to hear from others if they
have an opinion on this.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best regards,<br class="">
Phil<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
> On Dec 17, 2018, at 3:03 PM, Michel
LAURIN <<a
href="mailto:michel.laurin@mnhn.fr"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">michel.laurin@mnhn.fr</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Dear colleagues,<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Following Phil's and Kevin's messages,
with which I agree, I wish to clarify that
my intention is not to suggest that
reference to just any image anywhere on the
Internet or in any publication is as good as
having the image uploaded into Regnum and
published properly. However, note that many
journals, even prominent ones like Nature
and Systematic Biology have an abysmal
record of maintaining supplements (they now
decline responsibility and expect authors to
submit these on external repositories like
Dryad, but even there, the guarantee is that
the supplements will be maintained 50 years,
which is not that long for biological
nomenclature). So, perhaps it would be worth
stating somewhere that such images should be
in the body of the paper, rather than in
supplements, if that is not implied by other
articles of the code. <br class="">
> <br class="">
> Back to the main point, I think that
publication images of specimens should be
strongly encouraged, perhaps by a
recommendation. But if an author does not
wish to, or cannot produce an image of the
specimen, he should at least reference
existing images, if some are available. That
is better than nothing. The text could be
developed to clarify this, I suppose. I
tried to keep it short and simple, but
perhaps it was too short and too simple.<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> Best wishes,<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Michel<br class="">
> <br class="">
> ----- Mail d’origine -----<br class="">
> De: de Queiroz, Kevin <<a
href="mailto:deQueirozK@si.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">deQueirozK@si.edu</a>><br
class="">
> À: Cantino, Philip <<a
href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cantino@ohio.edu</a>>,
Michel LAURIN <<a
href="mailto:michel.laurin@mnhn.fr"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">michel.laurin@mnhn.fr</a>><br
class="">
> Cc: Committee on Phylogenetic
Nomenclature <<a
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>,
Max Langer <<a
href="mailto:mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br</a>><br
class="">
> Envoyé: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 20:05:42 +0100
(CET)<br class="">
> Objet: Re: [CPN] Proposed changes in
PhyloCode Article 11.9<br class="">
> <br class="">
> For images in the Wikimedia Commons, it
seems that they may be freely reused, so
perhaps they could simply be copied and
uploaded to Regnum.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> In the case of images associated with
museum collections, permission could likely
be obtained to reuse the image, although
such images will be rare for specimens that
are not types.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> In the case of images in publications,
if the publication is open access, the image
could perhaps be uploaded to RegNum. If it
is not open access, I think it would be
acceptable to cite the publication with the
relevant figure reference.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Kevin<br class="">
> <br class="">
> On 12/17/18, 11:59 AM, "CPN on behalf
of Cantino, Philip" <<a
href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a>
on behalf of
<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cantino@ohio.edu</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Dear Michel (and other CPN members),<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> I initially liked Michel’s
suggestion, but as I thought more about it,
I became concerned about the longevity of
the public repository. Do we want to rely
on the continued existence of a repository
that we have no control over? In contrast,
the longevity of an image that resides in
the RegNum database is fully under the
control of the ISPN. I am not firmly
opposed to Michel’s suggestion, but I would
like to know what others think.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Phil<br class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
>> On Dec 14, 2018, at 4:37 AM, Michel
LAURIN <<a
href="mailto:michel.laurin@mnhn.fr"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">michel.laurin@mnhn.fr</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Dear colleagues,<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> I agree with the proposed revision.
However, I think that we could perhaps
improve it a little by adding something like
this, after this sentence "When a specimen
that is not a type is used as a specifier in
a phylogenetic definition, either a brief
description or an image of the specimen must
be provided, sufficient to convey a mental
image to a non-specialist and distinguish
the specimen from organisms with which it
might be confused. "
<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> I suggest that we add something
like: "If no image is provided but if such
an image has been published or is available
in public repositories (such as Wikimedia
Commons), a reference to such an image, with
all the information necessary to retrieve it
and identify it unambiguously, must be
provided." The idea is that in some cases,
systematists may not feel compelled to
provide a new image of the specimen if one
exists, but the existence of that image may
not be widely known, especially if it is in
a small, local publication. I think that if
such an image exists, the minimal
requirement would be to mention it.<br
class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Best wishes,<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Michel<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> ----- Mail d’origine -----<br
class="">
>> De: Cantino, Philip <<a
href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br
class="">
>> À: Committee on Phylogenetic
Nomenclature <<a
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br
class="">
>> Cc: Max Langer <<a
href="mailto:mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">mclanger@ffclrp.usp.br</a>><br
class="">
>> Envoyé: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 02:53:23
+0100 (CET)<br class="">
>> Objet: [CPN] Proposed changes in
PhyloCode Article 11.9<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Dear CPN members,<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> When I sent you version 6 of the
code last month, I thought it would be the
final draft unless the CPN calls for
changes. However, in the process of
revising Appendix A (which in itself does
not require CPN approval) a concern arose,
which our proposed revision of Article 11.9
is intended to address. <br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> The attached document also includes
two relevant articles in which no changes
are proposed (11.7 and 11.8). For context,
it is important to read both of them before
considering the proposed changes in Art.
11.9.<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Please look this over soon and send
your comments by next Friday (Dec. 21) by
replying to this message (reply to all). I
don’t think this will take anyone more than
five minutes, so a week seems more than
sufficient, but the deadline can be extended
if some of you are away from email due to
travel.<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Thank you.<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Phil<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> -- <br class="">
>> Michel Laurin<br class="">
>> CR2P, UMR 7207<br class="">
>> Muséum National d'Histoire
Naturelle<br class="">
>> Bâtiment de Géologie<br class="">
>> Case postale 48<br class="">
>> 43 rue Buffon<br class="">
>> F-75231 Paris cedex 05<br class="">
>> FRANCE <br class="">
>> <a
href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">
http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a><br
class="">
>> E-mail: <a
href="mailto:michel.laurin@mnhn.fr"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">michel.laurin@mnhn.fr</a><br
class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
>
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
> CPN mailing list<br class="">
> <a
href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br
class="">
> <a
href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">
http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
> -- <br class="">
> Michel Laurin<br class="">
> CR2P, UMR 7207<br class="">
> Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle<br
class="">
> Bâtiment de Géologie<br class="">
> Case postale 48<br class="">
> 43 rue Buffon<br class="">
> F-75231 Paris cedex 05<br class="">
> FRANCE <br class="">
> <a
href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">
http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a><br
class="">
> E-mail: <a
href="mailto:michel.laurin@mnhn.fr"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">michel.laurin@mnhn.fr</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
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<div class=""><font class=""
face="tahoma,sans-serif">Max
Cardoso Langer Ph.D.
(Bristol, UK)
<br class="">
Departamento de Biologia
<br class="">
Faculdade de Filosofia,
Ciencias e Letras de
Ribeirao Preto <br
class="">
Universidade de Sao
Paulo (USP) <br
class="">
Av. Bandeirantes 3900 <br
class="">
14040-901 Ribeirao
Preto, SP, BRAZIL <br
class="">
<br class="">
Phone: +55 16 3315 3844
<br class="">
FAX: +55 16 3315 4886 <br
class="">
</font><a
href="http://sites.ffclrp.usp.br/paleo/"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true"><font
class=""
face="tahoma,sans-serif"
color="#3333ff">http://sites.ffclrp.usp.br/paleo/
</font></a><br class="">
<br class="">
<em class=""></em>
<div class=""><em class="">
<div class=""><em
class=""
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;
font-size:12.8px"><font
class=""
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</font></em></div>
</em>
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<div class=""
style="display:inline"><em class=""><font class=""
face="tahoma,sans-serif">
<div class=""
style="display:inline">
<div class=""
style="display:inline">A <b class="">semântica</b> é o último refúgio
dos canalhas</div>
</div>
</font></em></div>
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</font></em><em
class=""><font
class=""
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<span
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11.9_proposed changes_draft 2.docx></span>_______________________________________________<br
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