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<div style="">Dear CPN members,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Michel is the only person who has commented on the proposed reorganization of Note 9.3.1, though David M. provided input at an earlier stage in drafting them. Everyone else, if you wish to comment (as opposed to simply voting), please do so by the end
of the day this Wednesday. Unless the comments received spur further discussion or modifications, I will call for a vote on Thursday. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For your convenience, I am again attaching the most recent version (the one I sent you on July 8).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
</div>
<div style="">
<div></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class="x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium">"Cantino, Philip" <<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium">July 8, 2013 1:13:05 PM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium">Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium">Michel Laurin <<a href="mailto:michel.laurin@upmc.fr">michel.laurin@upmc.fr</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Proposal to reorganize Note 9.3.1--revised in light of Michel's comments</b><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div style="">
<div>Dear CPN members,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I sent you a proposed revision of Note 9.3.1 on July 3, asking that comments be sent by July 24. Michel read it very promptly and sent comments on July 5. Kevin and I have discussed Michel's suggested changes and incorporated three of them in the attached
revision. I made the changes using Track Changes so you should easily find them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Michel, you raised a fourth issue but we do not agree with you on that one, which concerns the recommended wordings for apomorphy-based definitions. You wrote: "None of these formulations seem sufficiently clear. They seem to allow use of homoplasy to
define mutiple clades, although the singular would imply that only one of the clades possessing the apomorphy is designated (though not necessarily the one in which it is synapomorphic with A. Note that �as inherited by A� is ambiguous; a homoplasy may be
indistinguishable from a synapomrophy, at the primary (historical) homology level. Take a very simple example, a substitution of a nucleotide (say, from A to T); it can happen in three clades, and it is indistinguishable. It is �as inherited in A� in all three.
I think that the definitions should use �<b style="">synapomorphic with A</b>�, instead of �as inherited by A�. I raised this problem in the preliminary version; I am surprised that my comments were not incorporated into this version."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the final sentence of your comment, the wording you objected to in the preliminary version was "as exhibited by A".<span style="">
</span>David M suggested changing this to "as inherited by A", we agreed, and that wording is used in the present version. I understand your objection to the "exhibited by" wording, but I don't see how "inherited by A" would lead to the homoplasy problem
you described. Using your example, if state T is inherited by specifier A from an ancestor, the state T inherited by A only originated once, even if an indistinguishable state T originated in parallel elsewhere.<span style=""> </span><span style="">In discussing
this with Kevin, he added the following comment: "</span>The fact that certain nucleotides are indistinguishable to us does not prevent us from inferring that they are homoplastic from the tree structure.<span style="">
</span>And if they are homoplastic, then only the one that was inherited by A would count as satisfying the definition."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am still asking that comments be sent by July 24, but please use the attached version (4b) instead of the one I sent on July 3. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
</div>
<div style="">
<div></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Jul 5, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Michel LAURIN wrote:</div>
<br class="x_x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Dear Phil et al.,<br>
<br>
Indeed, I am currently in Lisbon, hence the delay. I have inserted a <br>
few comments and suggestions (using tracked changes) in the attached <br>
version (I hope that I used the latest version because Phil's message <br>
seemed to include two slightly different versions).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
Quoting "Cantino, Philip" <<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>>:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear CPN members,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">The version of the Note 9.3.1 reorganization that I sent you <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">yesterday included some notes to ourselves and to David that I <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">forgot to delete. More importantly, I forgot to add some related <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">changes in Articles 2 and 11 from a separate document. Please <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">discard the version I sent you yesterday and use the one attached to <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">this message instead.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Thank you.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Phil<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Begin forwarded message:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">From: "Cantino, Philip" <cantino@ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">mailto:cantino@ohio.edu</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Date: July 3, 2013 1:49:52 PM EDT<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">To: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><cpn@listserv.ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Subject: Fwd: [CPN] Proposal to reorganize Note 9.3.1<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear CPN members,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">You were probably beginning to wonder if I had dropped off the face <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">of the earth, since I told you in mid-May that I would be able to <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">send a revised proposal by early June. Here it is at last, though <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">you may not immediately recognize it as fundamentally the same <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">proposal you looked over in April.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Partly in response to David Marjanovic's May 1 comments about the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">last version of our proposal, and partly out of Kevin's and my own <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">feelings that it is inappropriate for something that is as central <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">to the PhyloCode as phylogenetic definitions to be covered in a <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">complex Note, Kevin took the initiative to draft an expansion of <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Note 9.3.1 into a series of articles. After he and I did some <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">fine-tuning, we sent it to David M. for comments. David suggested <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">several changes, most of which we adopted, and in some cases <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">expanded on. Because all three of us (Kevin, David and I) were slow <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">to respond at various stages in this process due to other <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">responsibilities, it has taken longer than I expected. Although the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">resulting set of rules and notes is considerably longer than Note <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">9.3.1, this is not inappropriate given the importance of this <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">section, which is likely to be the most frequently consulted portion <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">of the code.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">These rules include some references to other articles, some of which <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">are numbered differently than in the current version of the code <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">because of changes that have already been approved by the CPN or <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">will be necessary if this expansion of Note 9.3.1 is adopted. <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Specifically, Arts. 9.4 - 9.9 are the new articles included here. <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Art 9.10 cited here is Art. 9.4 in the current online version of the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">code. Art. 11.12, cited here is Art. 11.9 in the current code.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">With many CPN members likely to be traveling during the summer, we <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">should give ourselves enough time so that everyone can read the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">proposed changes carefully. I suggest July 24 (three weeks) as a <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">target date to send comments, but please let me know if your plans <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">for this period make it difficult for you to do so in that time <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">frame. I am not asking for any voting at this time. Please send <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">your comments to the listserv, not to me personally.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Regards,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Phil<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Begin forwarded message:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">From: "Cantino, Philip" <cantino@ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">mailto:cantino@ohio.edu</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Date: May 13, 2013 2:49:40 PM EDT<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">To: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><cpn@listserv.ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Subject: Fwd: [CPN] Proposal to reorganize really just Note 9.3.1 this time<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear CPN members,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Although I had hoped to be able to generate a new revision of the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">proposals related to Note 9.3.1 last week, it is not ready. Kevin <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">and I worked on it via email last week and came up with wording we <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">are both comfortable with on some issues, but we haven't had time <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">yet to consider all of the aspects of David M's proposed <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">reorganization of that Note (and related matters in that message). <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Unfortunately, I am leaving town on Wednesday for nine days and will <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">not be dealing with CPN business during that period, so it is going <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">to have to wait a few weeks. I will do my best to get to it soon <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">after I return, but realistically, I think it is likely to be late <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">May or early June before we can send you a revised proposal.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Regards,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Phil<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Begin forwarded message:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">From: "Cantino, Philip" <cantino@ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">mailto:cantino@ohio.edu</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Date: May 3, 2013 2:08:01 PM EDT<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">To: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><cpn@listserv.ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Subject: Fwd: [CPN] Proposal to reorganize really just Note 9.3.1 this time<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear CPN members,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Quite a few changes were suggested on Wednesday, and it may take a <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">while for Kevin and me to work through them by email and generate a <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">new revision of the original set of proposals. I hope to be able to <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">send it to you by the middle of next week but it could be later.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Regards,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Phil<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Begin forwarded message:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">From: Michel Laurin <michel.laurin@upmc.fr<<a href="mailto:michel.laurin@upmc.fr">mailto:michel.laurin@upmc.fr</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Date: May 1, 2013 8:20:20 PM EDT<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">To: "cpn@listserv.ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>" <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><cpn@listserv.ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [CPN] Proposal to reorganize really just Note 9.3.1 this time<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi all,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> It is late, but I will be busy with something else tomorrow <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">(technically, later today because it is 2:20AM), so I just want to <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">add that after reading Kevin's and David's comments, with which I <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">agree (at least at first glance), if the changes outlined by both <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">are done, I think that I will feel comfortable voting for the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">amendment.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> Good night,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> Michel<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">On 02/05/13 02:10, David Marjanovic wrote:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">The entire text of the version I propose follows. Because it is so <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">different from the current wording, I have not marked additions and <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">deletions, except where I propose to delete entire paragraphs.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">=================================<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Note 9.3.1. The definition of "clade" is "an ancestor (an organism, <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">population, or species) and all of its descendants" (Art. 2.1). <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Building on this definition, clade names can be defined by pointing <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">at such an ancestor, creating a phylogenetic definition. This can be <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">done in different ways, such as the following:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">* The ancestor can be mentioned directly in an ancestor-based <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">definition: "A and all its descendants", where A is a specific <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">organism, population, or species.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">* Usually, however, the intended ancestor is not directly known. <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Thus, the ancestor can be indicated by its relation to two or more <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">specifiers (Art. 11) that are mentioned directly:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> * A minimum-clade definition [note the hyphen which makes <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">clear that the clade, not the definition, is a minimum] may take the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">form [...]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> * A maximum-clade definition may take the form [...]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> * An apomorphy-based definition may take the form [...]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">* The ancestor can be indicated by its relation to two or more <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">specifiers that are not mentioned directly, but described as members <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">of another clade that fulfill certain criteria. Such definitions may <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">first describe an unnamed clade and then use its extant members (or <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">those fulfilling another criterion) as specifiers for a <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">minimum-clade definition:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> * A maximum-modified crown clade definition [note the addition <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">of "-modified" to avoid confusion because crown clades are minimum <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">clades] may take the form [...]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"> * An apomorphy-modified crown clade definition may take the form [...]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">* A crown clade in its entirety, mentioned by name, can be the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">internal specifier in the definition of the name of a total clade <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">under the conditions specified in Art. 10.5. [This fact contradicts <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">a claim in Note 11.1.2.]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">[deletion of the two paragraphs that follow this list in the <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">proposal we're currently discussing]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">The above list is not exhaustive. Most importantly, definitions may <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">contain qualifying clauses that restrict their applications to <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">specific phylogenetic hypotheses (Art. 11.9).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">The system of abbreviations used here [...]<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">For abbreviations involving qualifying clauses, see Note 11.9.1.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">CPN mailing list<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">--<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Michel Laurin<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">UMR 7207<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Mus?um National d?Histoire Naturelle<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Batiment de G?ologie<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Case postale 48<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">43 rue Buffon<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">F-75231 Paris cedex 05<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">FRANCE<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php">http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">CPN mailing list<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu<<a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
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<span><Note 9.3.1 to Articles Version4a.docx></span></div>
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