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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Phil (and others),<br>
<br>
On 01/05/13 15:00, Cantino, Philip wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<div style="">Dear Michel (and other CPN members),
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In rewording Art. 2.2, we did not intend to imply that
crown and total clades are the only types of clades recognized
by the code. We proposed deleting the other three types of
clades from the list because they are really kinds of
definitions and names rather than categories of clades (see
our comments in brackets immediately before Art 2 in the
proposal). However, I can see how people would interpret our
wording to mean that these are the only kinds of clades
recognized by the code. I suggest that we address this
problem by adding a new Note 2.2.1, worded something like
this: "Art. 2.2 is not intended to imply that crown clades
and total clades are the only clades whose names are governed
by this code.<span style="">
</span>Minimum clade definitions, maximum clade definitions,
and apomorphy-based definitions can be used to define the
names of clades that are neither crown nor total."</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I don't see the advantage of this change. If simplification is
what is aimed at, the fact that we would need to add explanations
would negate the effect of deleting three kinds of definitions. And
even that explanation is only half-convincing. Paleontologists might
think that we are accommodating their needs as an after-thought, and
might wrongly think that their clade name/definitions combinations
are somehow not important in PN, as implemented in the ICPN.
Besides, the spirit of this change seems to run counter with the
move towards a more general formulation (maximal and minimal clades,
and earlier, branch-based rather than stem-based). There has been
relatively little use of the ICPN so far (by comparison with the
number of systematics papers), so do we even have a big enough
sample to tell that most clades named and defined under the ICPN in
the next 10 years are likely to be crown-based or total clades? And
do we have the stats about what has been done so far? I don't.
Personally, I would be cautious to put anything in the code that
might discourage some potential users. It is hard enough to get our
colleagues to use the ICPN as it is.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the wording of apomorphy-based clades and
apomorphy-modified crown clade definitions, are the wordings
you highlighted the only ones you are concerned about? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
No, I did not really highlight anything. I just inserted a note
in the paragraph.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="">
<div>If so, I don't understand why you don't have the same
concerns about the other wordings that use "exhibited" rather
than synapomorphic. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I do have concerns about all proposed formulations of
apomorphy-based definitions in the proposed amendment. I would
suggest this:<br>
<br>
"
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apomorphy-based definition may take the form "the clade
originating</span>
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EN-US" lang="EN-US">in the ancestor in which apomorphy M</span></span>,
synapomorphic with A, originated.
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment-->" or "
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EN-US" lang="EN-US">the clade for which M, <b>synapomorphic
with</b> A, is an apomorphy</span></span>
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EN-US" lang="EN-US">the clade characterized by apomorphy M <b>synapomorphic
with</b> A</span></span>
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment-->" (modified parts in
bold text).<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="">
<div>As a basis for discussion, it would be helpful if you would
send the listserv the exact wording you would like for each
formulation of these two kinds of definitions (at least those
formulations that you would like to change).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
See above.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="">
<div>
<div>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class="x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>From:
</b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">Michel Laurin <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michel.laurin@upmc.fr">michel.laurin@upmc.fr</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>Re: [CPN] proposed revisions of
Note 9.3.1: call for a vote</b><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">May 1, 2013 3:05:43 AM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>To:
</b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
I am sorry that I did not have time to look at
this text earlier. I have problems with the
formulation for apomorphy-based clades, in which
"synapomorphic with" was omitted of some kinds of
allowed definitions. This is a mistake in my opinion
because it leaves ambiguity; often, convergent
apomorphies are indistinguishable from synapomorphic
ones. So "synapomorphic" MUST be present in such kinds
of definitions.<br>
<br>
The removal of minimal and maximal clades defined
based on extinct taxa is a big mistake, in my opinion.
These are the kinds of clades that paleontologists
deal with most of the time, and they may conclude
(with some justification) that this clade is not for
them.<br>
<br>
Thust, for now, I vote against this amendment,
although I am in favor of the rest of it. But I would
like to see these issues fixed before I approve the
changes.<br>
<br>
See the attached text for annotations showing
where exactly the problems are.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On 01/05/13 00:54, Cantino, Philip wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="">Dear CPN members,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There has been little discussion of the
proposed revisions to Note 9.3.1, so I'm calling a
vote on it. The version I am asking you to vote
on is the one I sent yesterday, which incorporates
responses to the two points David M. raised. It
is attached again to this message. A simple Yes
(to approve) or No (to reject) is all that is
needed. Please send your vote to the listserv,
not to me personally.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please try to vote by the end of the day this
Friday, but if that schedule is too tight for some
of you, let me know and I'll extend it a few days.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="">
<div><br>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class="x_x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>From: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">"Cantino, Philip" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>Subject: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>Re: [CPN] proposed
revisions of Note 9.3.1</b><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>Date: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">April 29, 2013 1:00:59
PM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>To: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">Committee on
Phylogenetic Nomenclature <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div class="x_x_BodyFragment"><font size="2">
<div class="x_x_PlainText">Dear CPN
members,<br>
<br>
Kevin and I discussed the specific
suggestions made by David (copied
below). <br>
<br>
1) Rather than replacing
"synapomorphy" with "autapomorphy" in
the wording of apomorphy-based
definition, as David proposed, we
think that it should be replaced with
"apomorphy", and that the same change
be made in the wording of the
apomorphy-modified crown clade
definition. Although David is right
that an apomorphy of a clade is an
autapomorphy when viewed in relation
to other clades (the outgroups), it is
a synapomorphy of the members of the
clade being named, which is why we
used the term synapomorphy. However,
given that it can be viewed either
way, the term "apomorphy" is clearer.<br>
<br>
2) We agree with David's suggestion
that "and" be changed to "or" in the
definition of a total clade in Art.
2.2.<br>
<br>
I am attaching a new version of the
proposed changes that incorporates
these new modifications.
<br>
<br>
David, thank you for your careful
reading of the proposal.<br>
<br>
Does anyone else have any comments?
Tomorrow is the day I said I would
call for a vote if there was no active
discussion.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div class="x_x_BodyFragment"><font size="2">
<div class="x_x_PlainText"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Apr 25, 2013, at 5:35 PM, David
Marjanovic wrote:<br>
> ==================<br>
> <br>
> Concrete points about the current
proposal:<br>
> <br>
> I am particularly happy about the
replacement of "most/least inclusive"
by "largest/smallest". The former are
unambigous, but sound abstract enough
that -- for a long time -- they
managed to confuse me anyway.<br>
> <br>
> In the proposal to change the
definition of "apomorphy-based clade",
replace "synapomorphy" by
"autapomorphy" (twice). Hennig liked
inventing terminology, and he wanted
to express every possible concept in a
single word made from Greek
components; therefore _one_ clade has
autapomorphies (auto- = "self") while
_two_ sister-groups (or more in case
of a hard polytomy) have
synapomorphies (syn- = "together");
the synapomorphies of two
sister-groups are automatically
autapomorphies of the smallest clade
they form together, which makes the
terms redundant in many cases, but
still, there they are, and one clade
can't have _syn_apomorphies together
with just itself. -- The use of
"apomorphy" in that section is
correct; that term just means "derived
character state" without saying
derived relative to what.<br>
> <br>
> By using "and" in strategic
places, the proposal to change the
last point of Article 2.2 implies that
total clades must contain entire
species (even if they contain other
organisms in addition). In turn, this
implies that there cannot be clades
within a species. This is correct
under Hennig's species concept, but
not under whatever concepts the
ancestor worshippers think they use.
Simply use "or" like in the proposal
to change the preceding point (the one
about crown clades).<br>
> <br>
<br>
</div>
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<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">--
Michel Laurin
UMR 7207
Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle
Batiment de Géologie
Case postale 48
43 rue Buffon
F-75231 Paris cedex 05
FRANCE
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php">http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Michel Laurin
UMR 7207
Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle
Batiment de Géologie
Case postale 48
43 rue Buffon
F-75231 Paris cedex 05
FRANCE
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php">http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a></pre>
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