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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks Phil,<br>
<br>
I just noticed that there was a typo in my message; the end of
the last sentence of the second paragraph should read "...they may
conclude (with some justification) that this <b>code</b> is not
for them." But I think that you understood that...<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On 01/05/13 14:11, Cantino, Philip wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:8D909EFA-96B9-45A8-9C87-75F6E9CE66D6@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div>Dear CPN members,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In light of Michel's concerns, let's hold off on voting for a
few days to give ourselves time to discuss these issues.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On May 1, 2013, at 3:05 AM, Michel Laurin wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
I am sorry that I did not have time to look at this
text earlier. I have problems with the formulation for
apomorphy-based clades, in which "synapomorphic with" was
omitted of some kinds of allowed definitions. This is a
mistake in my opinion because it leaves ambiguity; often,
convergent apomorphies are indistinguishable from
synapomorphic ones. So "synapomorphic" MUST be present in
such kinds of definitions.<br>
<br>
The removal of minimal and maximal clades defined
based on extinct taxa is a big mistake, in my opinion.
These are the kinds of clades that paleontologists deal
with most of the time, and they may conclude (with some
justification) that this clade is not for them.<br>
<br>
Thust, for now, I vote against this amendment,
although I am in favor of the rest of it. But I would like
to see these issues fixed before I approve the changes.<br>
<br>
See the attached text for annotations showing where
exactly the problems are.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On 01/05/13 00:54, Cantino, Philip wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:5617B868-2DEF-42AB-8E98-52A51260F431@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="">Dear CPN members,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There has been little discussion of the proposed
revisions to Note 9.3.1, so I'm calling a vote on it.
The version I am asking you to vote on is the one I
sent yesterday, which incorporates responses to the
two points David M. raised. It is attached again to
this message. A simple Yes (to approve) or No (to
reject) is all that is needed. Please send your vote
to the listserv, not to me personally.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please try to vote by the end of the day this
Friday, but if that schedule is too tight for some of
you, let me know and I'll extend it a few days.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="">
<div><br>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class="x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px"> <span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>From: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">"Cantino, Philip" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px"> <span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>Subject: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>Re: [CPN] proposed
revisions of Note 9.3.1</b><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px"> <span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>Date: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">April 29, 2013 1:00:59 PM
EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px"> <span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium"><b>To: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica';
font-size:medium">Committee on Phylogenetic
Nomenclature <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div class="x_BodyFragment"><font size="2">
<div class="x_PlainText">Dear CPN members,<br>
<br>
Kevin and I discussed the specific
suggestions made by David (copied below).
<br>
<br>
1) Rather than replacing "synapomorphy"
with "autapomorphy" in the wording of
apomorphy-based definition, as David
proposed, we think that it should be
replaced with "apomorphy", and that the
same change be made in the wording of the
apomorphy-modified crown clade
definition. Although David is right that
an apomorphy of a clade is an autapomorphy
when viewed in relation to other clades
(the outgroups), it is a synapomorphy of
the members of the clade being named,
which is why we used the term
synapomorphy. However, given that it can
be viewed either way, the term "apomorphy"
is clearer.<br>
<br>
2) We agree with David's suggestion that
"and" be changed to "or" in the definition
of a total clade in Art. 2.2.<br>
<br>
I am attaching a new version of the
proposed changes that incorporates these
new modifications. <br>
<br>
David, thank you for your careful reading
of the proposal.<br>
<br>
Does anyone else have any comments?
Tomorrow is the day I said I would call
for a vote if there was no active
discussion.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div class="x_BodyFragment"><font size="2">
<div class="x_PlainText"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Apr 25, 2013, at 5:35 PM, David
Marjanovic wrote:<br>
> ==================<br>
> <br>
> Concrete points about the current
proposal:<br>
> <br>
> I am particularly happy about the
replacement of "most/least inclusive" by
"largest/smallest". The former are
unambigous, but sound abstract enough that
-- for a long time -- they managed to
confuse me anyway.<br>
> <br>
> In the proposal to change the
definition of "apomorphy-based clade",
replace "synapomorphy" by "autapomorphy"
(twice). Hennig liked inventing
terminology, and he wanted to express
every possible concept in a single word
made from Greek components; therefore
_one_ clade has autapomorphies (auto- =
"self") while _two_ sister-groups (or more
in case of a hard polytomy) have
synapomorphies (syn- = "together"); the
synapomorphies of two sister-groups are
automatically autapomorphies of the
smallest clade they form together, which
makes the terms redundant in many cases,
but still, there they are, and one clade
can't have _syn_apomorphies together with
just itself. -- The use of "apomorphy" in
that section is correct; that term just
means "derived character state" without
saying derived relative to what.<br>
> <br>
> By using "and" in strategic places,
the proposal to change the last point of
Article 2.2 implies that total clades must
contain entire species (even if they
contain other organisms in addition). In
turn, this implies that there cannot be
clades within a species. This is correct
under Hennig's species concept, but not
under whatever concepts the ancestor
worshippers think they use. Simply use
"or" like in the proposal to change the
preceding point (the one about crown
clades).<br>
> <br>
<br>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Michel Laurin
UMR 7207
Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle
Batiment de Géologie
Case postale 48
43 rue Buffon
F-75231 Paris cedex 05
FRANCE
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php">http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a></pre>
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<span><Note 9.3.1 min max terminiology final2.doc></span>_______________________________________________<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Michel Laurin
UMR 7207
Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle
Batiment de Géologie
Case postale 48
43 rue Buffon
F-75231 Paris cedex 05
FRANCE
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php">http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a></pre>
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