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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I vote against the deletion. I still
think that someday, the ISPN will produce a code for species, and
having some material to start such a code in our PhyloCode cannot
hurt. <br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On 24/09/12 16:59, Cantino, Philip wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:9C4EC9E2-1BE3-42E1-9657-8B0B6AFF1BF2@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
<div>Dear CPN members,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am following up on my Sept. 17 message (copied below).
Since no one commented further on the question whether Art.
11.4 should be deleted, I am calling for a vote. Please send
your vote to this listserv <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>
by FRIDAY (Sept. 28).</div>
<div>YES=Delete Rec. 11.4B</div>
<div>NO=Retain Rec. 11.4B</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>
<div id="art11.4" class="rule">
<div id="rec11.4b" class="recommendation">
<div class="para"><b><span class="label">Recommendation
11.4B.</span> If a specimen that is not a type
is used as a specifier in the first situation
described in Rec. 11.4A, and a species that
includes this specimen is subsequently named under
the appropriate rank-based code, this specimen
should be chosen as the type of the species name.
</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>
<div id="art11.4" class="rule">
<div id="rec11.4b" class="recommendation">
<div class="para"><b><br>
</b></div>
<div class="para"><br>
</div>
<div class="para">Pro and Con arguments, respectively:</div>
<div class="para">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; ">
<div>1) The PhyloCode should not recommend that
specific actions be taken under the rank-based
codes. What Rec. 11.4B recommends is simply
sensible nomenclatural practice and therefore
likely to be done anyway.</div>
<div>2) Sometimes it's a good idea to spell out
the obvious. A Recommendation is just a
recommendation; it is by definition
unenforceable -- we even say, in item 5 of the
Preamble, that other people shouldn't try to
enforce Recommendations for us: "editors and
reviewers should not require that they be
followed".</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; ">
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="para"><br>
</div>
<div class="para">Thank you.</div>
<div class="para"><br>
</div>
<div class="para">Phil</div>
<div class="para"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"Cantino,
Philip" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">September
17, 2012 1:05:50 PM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>To: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Committee
on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>[CPN]
changes based on CBM proposal--the next step</b><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">It has been a week
since I sent the message copied below, in which I proposed a
process to complete the CPN discussion of the species
proposal. Only two responses were sent to this listserve
(from Michel and David M), both of which were supportive, so
I am going to assume that no one is opposed to this
procedure.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As part of the suggested process, I asked that anyone
who disagrees with the spirit of changes 1-6 listed below
send a message to the listserve by Sept. 16 (yesterday).
No messages were received, so I am concluding that
everyone supports these first 6 changes in principle
(though you will still have the opportunity to vote on
specific wording). I will therefore take the next step
of developing specific wordings for these changes in
consultation with Kevin. Some of them are quite simple,
so I expect to be able to send those to you this week.
The revamping of Art. 21 will take more time, so I will
leave that to last and work on it while the CPN is
discussing and voting on the others. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Item #7 (deletion of Rec. 11.4B) is not unanimously
supported by the CPN, so we will need to discuss and vote
on that one. I suggest that we start that discussion
immediately because it can be done this week while I am
working with Kevin to recommend wording on the other
changes. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="art11.4" class="rule">
<div class="para"><span class="label">Art. 11.4 and its
two recommendations read as follows:</span></div>
<div class="para"> <span class="label">11.4.</span>
When a type specimen is used as a specifier, the
species name that it typifies and the author(s) and
publication year of that species name must be cited. </div>
<div id="rec11.4a" class="recommendation">
<div class="para"> <span class="label">Recommendation
11.4A.</span> The use of specimens that are not
types as specifiers is strongly discouraged. This
should be done only under the following two
circumstances: <span class="list"> <span
class="list-item">1) if the specimen that one
would like to use as a specifier cannot be
referred to a named species, so that there is no
type specimen that could be used instead; or</span>
<span class="list-item">2) if the clade to be
named is within a species.</span> </span> </div>
</div>
<div id="rec11.4b" class="recommendation">
<div class="para"> <b><span class="label">Recommendation
11.4B.</span> If a specimen that is not a type
is used as a specifier in the first situation
described in <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ohio.edu/phylocode/art11.html#rec11.4a">Rec.
11.4A</a>, and a species that includes this
specimen is subsequently named under the
appropriate rank-based code, this specimen should
be chosen as the type of the species name.
</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here are the two points of view about Rec. 11.4B that
have been expressed so far:</div>
<div>1) I would like to delete Rec. 11.4B because I don't
think the PhyloCode should recommend what people to under
the rank-based codes. What Rec. 11.4B recommends is
simply sensible nomenclatural practice and therefore
likely to be done anyway.</div>
<div>2) David M. disagreed, stating, "however, sometimes
it's a good idea to spell out the obvious. A
Recommendation is just a recommendation; it is by
definition unenforceable -- we even say, in item 5 of the
Preamble, that other people shouldn't try to enforce
Recommendations for us: "editors and reviewers should not
require that they be followed"."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If anyone would like to add to this discussion (beyond
simply agreeing with one viewpoint or the other), please
do so by Friday. If no one disagrees with the timing I am
suggesting, I will ask the committee to vote on the
deletion of Rec. 11.4B next Monday. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope no one feels that I am out of place in
suggesting the timing for the discussion and the vote
(since I am just a member of the committee, not the
chairman). If you would like to propose an alternative
procedure or timing, please say so. I am simply trying to
facilitate reaching a conclusion so that we can report
back to the authors of the proposal and move on to other
matters that have been brought up in the meanwhile.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<div>
<div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"Cantino,
Philip" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">September
10, 2012 2:33:09 PM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>To: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Committee
on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span
style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>[CPN]
Fwd: CPN action needed on species proposal</b><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
I think the plan was to send the authors
our comments after we agree on wording for
the modifications of the code that stemmed
from the CBM proposal (see the last
paragraph in Dave Tank's Aug. 25 message).
I hope we can move this along quickly
now. Dave's deadline for responding with
general categories of changes was Sept. 3.
I suggest that we can finish with this
matter most quickly by proceeding as
follows:<br>
1) Give committee members one week to
speak up if any of us disagrees that a
certain change or kind of change (not the
specific wording) would be worthwhile.<br>
2) For those changes where there is no
disagreement, I am willing to take the
lead in framing specific wording in
consultation with Kevin. Then we will
submit our suggested wording to the CPN
for discussion, possible modification, and
a vote. These should probably be
discussed and voted on one by one, as
Kevin Padian suggested, but let's try to
limit ourselves to no more than a week for
each, preferably less, as I don't think
most of them will be controversial.<br>
3) For the suggested categories of change
where there is disagreement within the
CPN, why don't we give ourselves a few
days to express our views and then vote on
whether to turn them over to me and Kevin
to draft wording or leave them as
currently worded in the code. This can be
done simultaneously with step 2 since step
2 does not involve the whole CPN.<br>
<br>
If anyone has an alternative idea of how
to proceed, please say so soon; let's keep
things moving along.<br>
<br>
I am aware of the following kinds of
changes that have been proposed:<br>
1) Broadening the definition of species in
the glossary and elsewhere in the code.<br>
2) Simplify and improve Art. 21, as
proposed by David M. and others.<br>
3) Modify the Preamble along the lines
suggested by CBM.<br>
4) Delete Note 3.1.1 and consider merging
Note 3.1.2 with Art. 3.1 <br>
5) Reword Art. 9.7 (see my Aug. 27 message
for details)<br>
6) Reword Rec. 9c (see my Aug. 27 message
for details)<br>
7) Delete Rec. 11.4B<br>
<br>
Did I miss any?<br>
<br>
The only one of these for which
disagreement has been expressed to date is
number 7, which David M. disagrees with.
How about items 1 through 6? Does anyone
disagree that it is worthwhile for Kevin
and me to draw up specific wording on
these for the CPN to consider? I suggest
that we set ourselves a deadline of
Sunday, Sept. 16 for CPN members who
disagree with any of these changes to say
so. Is this procedure OK with everyone?
It would be good to hear from at least
Dave, as CPN chair, but I hope everyone
will feel free to suggest an alternative
way to proceed if you are uncomfortable
with my suggestions.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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