<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi All,<div><br></div><div>I think that Brent's request to be involved in the discussion is more than fair - especially if we are trying to find parts of the proposal to include etc. As of now, there has been relatively little discussion about what to include - the new definition of species being one and the revision to Art 21 by David M (see email from May 11). Both of these will need to be voted on if there is no more discussion, but at this point I feel that it would be best to get the discussion including the authors going first; this may in fact produce additional revisions.</div><div><br></div><div>At this point, Phil, and Michel have expressed support for Kevin P's suggested procedure, while Kevin deQ has suggested an alternative following the ICZN model; both suggestions are in the thread below.</div><div><br></div><div>As a third option, how do people feel about using the ISPN forum on the society webpage for our discussions - this one and future - and the CPN listserve to vote? This seems like it would facilitate keeping track of CPN topics and discussion points much more efficiently than email threads, and would allow for the community to see - and participate in - CPN discussions. For the purposes of including the authors in this discussion, those that have weighed in on the discussion of the CBM proposal could post their summaries, David M. could post outside comments, and anyone (the authors of the proposal included) would be able to provide comments/participate in the discussion prior to the CPN vote.</div><div><br></div><div>In an attempt to keep this moving, I would like to hear from the rest of the CPN either in support of one of the suggested mechanisms for including the authors in this discussion, or an alternative. It would be great to have this settled this week, so we can inform the authors of this by Friday (one week from their request).</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks and best,</div><div>Dave <br>
<br><div><div>On May 13, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Michel Laurin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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I agree too.<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On 13/05/12 21:18, Cantino, Philip wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:06E5F368-149B-4C7B-A685-9DD03F889ADE@ohio.edu" type="cite">I prefer Kevin Padian's suggested mechanism. The
problem with sending all of our comments to the proposal authors
is that some of the longer messages are no longer relevant. For
example, I don't think it would be productive to send Nico et al.
the lengthy counterproposal that I sent to the listserv on Jan.
15. Much of it was an attempt to find compromise wording I could
live with for particular articles, but in many of these cases I
prefer the current wording. Since the CPN has already voted
overwhelmingly not to accept the entire Cellinese et al. proposal,
most of my suggestions in the Jan. 15 message are no longer
relevant. The same may also apply to some of the long messages
sent by other CPN members. I like Kevin P's suggestion that those
of us who wish to may prepare a summary of our objections to the
Cellinese et al. proposal. Mine would draw from my previous
comments but would be a lot briefer and more succinct. If this
mechanism is adopted, I would hope that everyone who was actively
involved in the discussion would send something to the proposal
authors, though it might either be their previous comments as
originally submitted or an abbreviated summary, whatever that
person prefers.
<div><br>
<div>I do think that all comments from people who are not CPN
members should be sent to the proposal authors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"de
Queiroz, Kevin" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:deQueirozK@si.edu">deQueirozK@si.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">May
12, 2012 12:10:12 PM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"Cantino,
Philip" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>>,
Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>RE:
[CPN] Fwd: Decision on proposal with respect to
species</b><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>I don't think that it is appropriate for the
proposers to be part of the CPN discussion that leads to
votes (unless they are already members of the CPN). If
we take the ICZN as a model, after a proposal is
submitted, it is published in the BZN and there is a
chance for public comment, which is also published in
the BZN. I believe the proposers are allowed to be part
of that discussion (point and counter-point). However,
when it comes to the vote of the Commission, the
proposers are not involved unless they are already
committee members. If we were to follow that model, we
could post on the ICZN website all of the comments (from
both members and non-members of the CPN), both pro and
con, provided that the authors consent. I give my
consent to post my comments.<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><br><div>On May 12, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Kevin Padian wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Rather than sift through previous emails, some of which may have been<br>intended only for internal discussion, would it be better if individual<br>members elected to send Brent, Nico and David a summary of their previous<br>comments?<br><br>After all the issue of accepting their proposal is closed and there is no<br>use in further debate and cluttering up everyone's mailbox ...<br>particularly if the committee wants to consider certain amendments now. <br>That would make a clean distinction, it seems to me.<br><br>I agree with Phil about including the authors of the proposal in<br>discussion before a final decision is reached. Could I suggest another<br>way to do that? We might discuss this among ourselves for a while and<br>identify general consensus (if it exists) on the proposal. These points<br>could be summarized for the authors, who would then be asked to respond<br>(one hopes in no more than a few pages max). Then the committee could<br>discuss those points and make a final decision. Just a suggestion; it<br>might be a bit cleaner. -- kp<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><blockquote cite="mid:06E5F368-149B-4C7B-A685-9DD03F889ADE@ohio.edu" type="cite"><div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
________________________________________<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Cantino,
Philip [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>]<br>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 7:55 AM<br>
To: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature<br>
Subject: [CPN] Fwd: Decision on proposal with respect
to species<br>
<br>
This seems like a fair request. If the CPN agrees, I
can easily add Brent, Nico and David to the listserv for
the purpose of this discussion and then unsubscribe them
after we are done discussing their proposal. If we
agree to this, though, I think Dave (as CPN chair) will
need to be assertive about cutting off discussion of
particular points if it becomes clear that the pros and
cons of that point are being stated repeatedly by the
same people on each side. Otherwise, progress will slow
to a snail's pace and everyone's time will be wasted.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure how best to give the proposal authors
access to the points that led to our initial decision.
This relates to the following in Dave's message
yesterday:<br>
"Also, I wonder if we should post several of the
responses and or snippets of the discussion for the
authors and rest of the society to see? For example, I
feel that Dick Olmstead's review that he shared with the
committee, David Hillis' comments, and Kevin's response
do a very good job of articulating the position of the
CPN, and it seems like the authors and the society
should be aware of these." The messages that Dave
suggests are good choices, but I also suggest that we
include my explanation of why I object strongly to
permitting the conversion of specific epithets to clade
names (i.e., the elimination of Art. 10.9); this is in a
relatively short message that I sent to the CPN on
January 11. Other members of the CPN may also want to
include points made in their messages too. Perhaps
each of us should choose particular points we would like
to share with the authors of the proposal, and in
addition let's send them David Hillis' comments.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
<br>
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<br>
From: Brent Mishler
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu">bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu</a><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu">mailto:bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [CPN] Decision on proposal with respect to
species<br>
Date: May 12, 2012 12:19:50 AM EDT<br>
To: David Tank <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dtank@uidaho.edu">dtank@uidaho.edu</a><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dtank@uidaho.edu">mailto:dtank@uidaho.edu</a>>><br>
Cc: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>>>,
David Baum <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dbaum@facstaff.wisc.edu">dbaum@facstaff.wisc.edu</a><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dbaum@facstaff.wisc.edu">mailto:dbaum@facstaff.wisc.edu</a>>>,
Nico Cellinese <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ncellinese@flmnh.ufl.edu">ncellinese@flmnh.ufl.edu</a><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ncellinese@flmnh.ufl.edu">mailto:ncellinese@flmnh.ufl.edu</a>>><br>
<br>
Hi Dave,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the news; it is better to hear it directly.
I know there is not a lot of precedent for CPN
procedure; I think we were the first "outside" proposal
you had to deal with. So I'd like to suggest a
procedural improvement: at some point it would be fair
for us to have a chance to reply to points made by CPN
members. So far it has been like a debate where only
one side is allowed to actually debate. The people with
vested interest in the current treatment of species in
the Phylocode, Kevin and Phil, are in the debate and
none of the three of us are.<br>
<br>
Just a thought,<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Brent<br>
<br>
<br>
On May 11, 2012, at 7:17 PM, David Tank wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear Nico, Brent, and David,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your thoughtful proposal for changes to
the PhyloCode with respect to species. The CPN has
voted to reject the proposal as an entire entity but
also decided to continue discussion to determine if
there are elements of your proposal that we would like
to incorporate in the next revision of the draft code.
I apologize on behalf of the CPN for not having
informed you promptly about the initial vote, an
oversight that was related to the fact that we are still
discussing elements of the proposal and thus view the
decision-making process as still in progress. At the
conclusion of this discussion, we will inform you of the
outcome as well as posting the CPN decision on the news
section of the ISPN website.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Dave<br>
_________________________________<br>
David C. Tank<br>
Assistant Professor & Director, Stillinger Herbarium<br>
University of Idaho<br>
208.885.7033<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dtank@uidaho.edu">dtank@uidaho.edu</a><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dtank@uidaho.edu">mailto:dtank@uidaho.edu</a>><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.phylodiversity.net/dtank/">http://www.phylodiversity.net/dtank/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************************<br>
Brent D. Mishler<br>
Professor, Department of Integrative Biology<br>
Director, University and Jepson Herbaria<br>
University of California, Berkeley<br>
Mailing address:<br>
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY<br>
UNIVERSITY AND JEPSON HERBARIA<br>
1001 VALLEY LIFE SCIENCES BLDG # 2465<br>
BERKELEY, CA 94720-2465 USA<br>
Office: 4164 VLSB<br>
Phone: (510) 642-6810 [office and lab]<br>
FAX: (510) 643-5390<br>
E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu">bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu</a><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu">mailto:bmishler@calmail.berkeley.edu</a>><br>
WWW: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ucjeps.berkeley.edu/people/mishler.html">http://ucjeps.berkeley.edu/people/mishler.html</a><br>
**********************************************************<br>
<br>
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