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Dear Phil,<br>
<br>
Sure, that would be fine with me. Or even simpler: a kind of
biological entity that may or may not be a clade.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On 14/01/12 17:16, Cantino, Philip wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:CD523D42-C372-47B5-9FCE-7AC2E2910A91@ohio.edu"
type="cite">Thanks, Michel. I like your first suggested wording
but I'd go even further and say: a kind of biological entity that
may or may not be different from a clade. This makes it clear
that some biologists consider species to be small clades and some
do not.
<div>Phil<br>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Jan 13, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Michel Laurin wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Dear Phil,<br>
<br>
I think that you are on the right track. I am
guessing that Nico and Brent will not find that
sufficient, but the main purpose is to improve the code.
The new species definition is more neutral. I would
reformulate it slightly, hower, as such:<br>
<br>
A taxonomic unit that is variably conceptualized as a
kind of biological <b>that may be </b>entity different
from a clade...<br>
<br>
Or:<br>
<br>
A taxonomic unit that is variably conceptualized as a
kind of biological entity different from a clade <b>(although
some may happen to be clades as well) </b>or simply a
taxon of low rank in traditional nomenclature.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span><br>
<br>
Because some authors (Nico and Brent, apprantely)
conceptualize species as clades, and even if they are
conceptualized differently, some will be clades, by
chance. I think that Nico and Brent might prefer the
first option.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On 13/01/12 21:18, Cantino, Philip wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:BAD9186E-FCA6-40FD-8279-744F07449E98@ohio.edu"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal">CPN members,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In considering the Cellinese et
al. proposal, I think it is important to separate
philosophical considerations from practical ones.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>The
philosophical premise underlying their proposal is
stated in their second paragraph:<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>“The debate
over species concepts does not need to be solved for
the purpose of naming clades under the PhyloCode.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Phylogenetic
nomenclature can and should remain logically
independent from the philosophical debate about
species.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Therefore,
the PhyloCode need not and should not anoint any
particular species concept as the correct one. “<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>They conclude
in the next sentence that “by leaving the word
‘species’ out of the entire document it will be
clear that the PhyloCode is available to all
systematists regardless of their views on the nature
of species.”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am sympathetic to their premise
that because the PhyloCode focuses strictly on the
naming of clades, it should not adopt a particular
stance on the nature of species, but I strongly
disagree that the word “species” should be banished
from the code.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Doing
so would ignore the reality that the vast majority
of biologists (I’d wager 99.9%), not to mention most
of the general public, use species names and will
continue to do so regardless what they think a
species is.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>If
we want the systematics community to use the
PhyloCode, we need to make it possible for people to
define clade names using the entities they are most
familiar with (species) and to combine species names
with PhyloCode-governed clade names in scientific
works and in the classroom.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>If people have
to choose between using species names and using the
PhyloCode, our effort is doomed.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are certain parts of the
Cellinese et al. proposal that I consider to be
non-starters, most seriously the elimination of Art.
10.9 (see my previous message), but we may be able
to address their philosophical concern with
relatively few changes if we broaden the definition
of “species” used in the code to encompass the
breadth of views on this subject but continue to use
the word “species” (defined in this way) in the
rules and recommendations.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>I discussed
this idea today with Kevin and we jointly prepared
the following possible definition (written in the
form that it would appear in the glossary), which
does not endorse any particular species concept:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">species</i></b><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>A taxonomic
unit that is variably conceptualized as a kind of
biological entity different from a clade or simply
a taxon of low rank in traditional nomenclature.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>This code
does not endorse any species concept nor provide
rules for defining species names, but it uses
species names governed by the rank-based codes to
refer to taxa that are used as specifiers in
definitions of clade names.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Article 21
provides guidelines for the use of species names
governed by the rank-based codes in conjunction
with clade names governed by this code.</b></p>
<div>With this definition in mind, I have started
working through the Cellinese et al. species
proposal article by article. I will send the result
to the CPN next week, but if some of you feel this
approach is not viable, please let me know soon so I
don't waste a lot of time working out the details.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have a good weekend everyone!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phil</div>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
UMR 7207
Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle
Batiment de Géologie
Case postale 48
43 rue Buffon
F-75231 Paris cedex 05
FRANCE
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=3669">http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=3669</a></pre>
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_______________________________________________<br>
CPN mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
CPN mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
UMR 7207
Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle
Batiment de Géologie
Case postale 48
43 rue Buffon
F-75231 Paris cedex 05
FRANCE
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=3669">http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=3669</a></pre>
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